For DDE/

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-02-19

<youpi> antrik: we should probably add a gsoc idea on pci bus arbitration
<youpi> DDE is still experimental for now so it's ok that you  have to
  configure it by hand, but it should be automatic at some ponit

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-02-21

<braunr> i'm not familiar with the new gnumach interface for userspace
  drivers, but can this pci enumerator be written with it as it is ?
<braunr> (i'm not asking for a precise answer, just yes - even probably -
  or no)
<braunr> (idk or utsl will do as well)
<youpi> I'd say yes
<youpi> since all drivers need is interrupts, io ports and iomem
<youpi> the latter was already available through /dev/mem
<youpi> io ports through the i386 rpcs
<youpi> the changes provide both interrupts, and physical-contiguous
<youpi> it should be way enough
<braunr> youpi: ok
<braunr> youpi: thanks for the details :)
<antrik> braunr: this was mentioned in the context of the interrupt
  forwarding interface... the original one implemented by zhengda isn't
  suitable for a PCI server; but the ones proposed by youpi and tschwinge
  would work
<antrik> same for the physical memory interface: the current implementation
  doesn't allow delegation; but I already said that it's wrong

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-15

<bddebian> youpi: Oh, BTW, I keep meaning to ask you.  Could sound be done
  with dde or would there still need to be some kernel work?
<youpi> bddebian: we'd need a PCI arbitrer for that
<youpi> for now just one userland poking with PCI is fine
<youpi> but two can produce bonks
<bddebian> They can't use the same?
<youpi> that's precisely the matter
<youpi> they have to use the same
<youpi> and not poke with it themselves
<braunr> that's what an arbiter is for
<bddebian> OK, so if we don't have a PCI arbiter now, how do things like
  netdde and video not collide currently?
<bddebian> s/netdde/network/
<bddebian> or disk for that matter
<braunr> bddebian: ah currently, well currently, the network is the only
  thing using the pci bus
<bddebian> How is that possible when I have a PCI video card and disk
<braunr> they are accessed through compatible means
<bddebian> I suppose one of the hardest parts is prioritization?
<braunr> i don't think it matters much, no
<youpi> bddebian: netdde and Xorg don't collide essentially because they
  are not started at the same time (hopefully)
<bddebian> braunr: What do you mean it doesn't matter?
<braunr> bddebian: well the point is rather serializing access, we don't
  need more
<braunr> do other systems actually schedule access to the pci bus ?
<bddebian> From what I am reading, yes
<braunr> ok

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-16

<antrik> youpi: the lack of a PCI arbiter is a problem, but I wounldn't
  consider it a precondition for adding another userspace driver
  class... it's up to the user to make sure he has only one class active,
  or take the risk of not doing so...
<antrik> (plus, I suspect writing the arbiter is a smaller task than
  implementing another DDE class anyways...)
<bddebian> Where would the arbiter need to reside, in gnumach?
<antrik> bddebian: kernel would be one possible place (with the advantage
  of running both userspace and kernel drivers without the potential for
<antrik> but I think I would prefer a userspace server
<youpi> antrik: we'd rather have PCI devices automatically set up
<youpi> just like /dev/netdde is already set up for the user
<youpi> so you can't count on the user
<youpi> for the arbitrer, it could as well be userland, while still
  interacting with the kernel for some devices
<youpi> we however "just" need to get disk drivers in userland to drop PCI
  drivers from kernel, actually

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-17

<bddebian> youpi: So this PCI arbiter should be a hurd server?
<youpi> that'd be better
<bddebian> youpi: Is there anything existing to look at as a basis?
<youpi> no idea off-hand
<bddebian> I mean you couldn't take what netdde does and generalize it?
<youpi> netdde doesn't do any arbitration

IRC, OFTC, #debian-hurd, 2012-07-19

<bdefreese> youpi: Well at some point if you ever have time I'd like to
  understand better how you see the PCI architecture working in Hurd.
  I.E. would you expect the server to do enumeration and arbitration?
<youpi> I'd expect both, yes, but that's probably to be discussed rather
  with antrik, he's the one who took some time to think about it
<bdefreese> netdde uses libpciaccess currently, right?
<youpi> yes
<youpi> libpciaccess would have to be fixed into using the arbitrer
<youpi> (that'd fix xorg as well)
<bdefreese> Man, I am still a bit unclear on how this all interacting
  currently.. :(
<youpi> currently it's not
<youpi> and it's just by luck that it doesn't break
<bdefreese> Long term xxxdde would use the new server, correct?
<youpi> (well, we are also sure that the gnumach enumeration comes always
  before the netdde enumeration, and xorg is currently not started
  automatically, so its enumeration is also always after that)
<youpi> yes
<youpi> the server would essentially provide an interface equivalent to
<bdefreese> Right
<bdefreese> In general, where does the pci map get "stored"?  In GNU/Linux,
  is it all /proc based?
<youpi> what do you mean by "pci map" ?
<bdefreese> Once I have enumerated all of the buses and devices, does it
  stay stored or is it just redone for every call to a pci device?
<youpi> in linux it's stored in the kernel
<youpi> the abritrator would store it itself

IRC, freenode, #hurd, 2012-07-20

<bddebian> antrik: BTW, youpi says you are the one to talk to for design of
  a PCI server :)
<antrik> oh, am I?
* antrik feels honoured :-)
<antrik> I guess it's true though: I *did* spent a little thought on
  it... even mentioned something in my thesis IIRC
<antrik> there is one tricky aspect to it though, which I'm not sure how to
  handle best: we need two different instances of libpciaccess
<bddebian> Why two instances of libpciaccess?
<antrik> one used by the PCI server to access the hardware directly (using
  the existing port poking backend), and one using a new backend to access
  our PCI server...
<braunr> bddebian: hum, both i guess ?
<bddebian> antrik: Why wouldn't the server access the hardware directly?  I
  thought libpciaccess was supposed to be generic on purpose?
<antrik> hm... guess I wasn't clear
<antrik> the point is that the PCI server should use the direct hardware
  access backend of libpciaccess
<antrik> however, *clients* should use the PCI server backend of
<antrik> I'm not sure backends can be selected at runtime...
<antrik> which might mean that we actually have to compile two different
  versions of the library. erk.
<bddebian> So you are saying the pci server should itself use libpci access
  rather than having it's own?
<antrik> admittedly, that's not the most fundamental design decision to
  make ;-)
<antrik> bddebian: yes. no need to rewrite (or copy) this code...
<bddebian> Hmm
<antrik> actually that was the plan all along when I first suggested
  implementing the register poking backend for libpciaccess
<bddebian> Hmm, not sure I like it but I am certainly in no position to
  question it right now :)
<braunr> why don't you like it ?
<bddebian> I shouldn't need an Xorg specific library to access PCI on my OS
<braunr> oh
<bddebian> Though I don't disagree that reinventing the wheel is a bit
  tedious. :)
<antrik> bddebian: although it originates from X.Org, I don't think there
  is anything about the library technically making it X-specific...
<braunr> yes that's my opinion too
<antrik> (well, there are some X-specific functions IIRC, but these do not
  hurt the other functionality)
<bddebian> But what is there is api/abi breakage? :)
<bddebian> s/is/if/
<antrik> BTW according to rdepends there appear to be a number of non-X
  things using the library now
<pinotree> like, uhm, hurd
<antrik> yeah, that too... we are already using it for DDE
<pinotree> if you have deb-src lines in your sources.list, use the
  grep-dctrl power:
<pinotree> grep-dctrl -sPackage -FBuild-Depends libpciaccess-dev
  /var/lib/apt/lists/*_source_Sources | sort -u
<bddebian> I know we are using it for netdde.
<antrik> nice thing about it is that once we have the PCI server and an
  appropriate backend for libpciaccess, the same netdde and X binaries
  should work either with or without the PCI server
<bddebian> Then why have the server at all?
<braunr> it's the arbiter
<braunr> you can use the library directly only if you're the only user
<braunr> and what antrik means is that the interface should be the same for
  both modes
<bddebian> Ugh, that is where I am getting confused
<bddebian> In that case shouldn't everything use libpciaccess and the PCI
  server has to arbitrate the requests?
<braunr> bd ?
<braunr> bddebian: yes
<braunr> bddebian: but they use the indirect version of the library
<braunr> whereas the server uses the raw version
<bddebian> OK, I gotcha (I think)
<braunr> (but they both provide the same interface, so if you don't have a
  pci server and you know you're the only user, the direct version can be
<bddebian> But I am not sure I see the difference between creating a second
  library or just moving the raw access to the PCI server :)
<braunr> uh, there is no difference in that
<braunr> and you shouldn't do it
<braunr> (if that's what antrik meant at least)
<braunr> if you can select the backend (raw or pci server) easily, then
  stick to the same code base
<bddebian> That's where I struggle.  In my worthless opinion, raw access
  should be the OS job while indirect access would be the libraries
<braunr> that's true
<braunr> but as an optimization, if an application is the only user, it can
  directly use raw access
<bddebian> How would you know that?
<bddebian> I'm sorry if these are dumb questions
<braunr> hum, don't try to make this behaviour automatic
<braunr> it would be selected by the user through command line switches
<bddebian> But the OS itself uses PCI for things like disk access and
  video, no?
<braunr> (it could be automatic but it makes things more complicated)
<braunr> you don't need an arbiter all the time
<braunr> i can't tell you more, wait for antrik to return
<braunr> i realize i might already have said some bullshit
<antrik> bddebian: well, you have a point there that once we have the
  arbiter and use it for everthing, it isn't strictly useful to still have
  the register poking in the library
<antrik> however, the code will remain in the library anyways, so we better
  continue using it rather than introducing redundancy...
<antrik> but again, that's rather a side issue concerning the design of the
  PCI server
<bddebian> antrik: Fair enough. :)  So how would I even start on this?
<antrik> bddebian: actually, libpciaccess is a good starting point:
  checking the API should give you a fairly good idea what functionality
  the server needs to implement
<pinotree> (+1 on library (re)use)
<bddebian> antrik: KK
<antrik> sorry, I'm a bit busy right now...